20 June 2009: Liberation Square

[14:08] Jago Constantine: Hi, Emerald, welcome
[14:08] Emerald Learner: : ))
[14:08] Eddi Haskell: hi emerald
[14:08] Emerald Learner: hey there
[14:09] Jago Constantine: nice skates :)
[14:09] Emerald Learner: thx
[14:09] Jago Constantine: just a small group for sci fi discussion today it seems
[14:09] Emerald Learner: yep
[14:09] Eddi Haskell: its the summer already
[14:09] Jago Constantine: yeah?
[14:09] Eddi Haskell: well yes i think today or tomorrow / i think
[14:10] Jago Constantine: oh you mean summer vacation?
[14:10] Eddi Haskell: no summer / i am not sure if it is one time around the world
[14:10] Jago Constantine: I thought the season began on 1 June
[14:10] Eddi Haskell: it is midnight on june 20
[14:11] Eddi Haskell: no june 21 in the northern hemisphere
[14:11] Eddi Haskell: is the longest day of the year
[14:11] Eddi Haskell: and where you are
[14:11] Eddi Haskell: is the shortest day of the year in terms of sunlight
[14:11] Eddi Haskell: it probalby gets dark out at 5 pm where you are
[14:11] Eddi Haskell: so where you are from now on the days will get longer
[14:12] Eddi Haskell: but the closer you are to the equator
[14:12] Jago Constantine: I base seasons around the months, not the solstices :P
[14:12] Eddi Haskell: i do solstances lol
[14:12] Jago Constantine: Anyway have you read any science fiction this week eddi?
[14:12] Eddi Haskell: well
[14:12] Eddi Haskell: the closest I came
[14:12] Jago Constantine: You were in tennessee ... it might be illegal there :P / Oh we lost her
[14:12] Eddi Haskell: is a short story on what would have happened if the attomic bomb was not invented
[14:12] Jago Constantine: cool
[14:12] Eddi Haskell: well
[14:13] Jago Constantine: what would have happened?
[14:13] Eddi Haskell: this book says
[14:13] Eddi Haskell: the war would have gone on indefinately
[14:13] Eddi Haskell: for years
[14:13] Eddi Haskell: that operation olympic would have been moved up
[14:13] Eddi Haskell: there were two invactions planned
[14:13] Eddi Haskell: coront and olympic
[14:13] Eddi Haskell: the first one was of the sourthern island
[14:14] Eddi Haskell: the second one honshu in 46
[14:14] Eddi Haskell: massive american causalties
[14:14] Jago Constantine: wow
[14:14] Eddi Haskell: the russians would have invaded hokaido / the northern island
[14:14] Jago Constantine: hmm
[14:14] Eddi Haskell: and the americans would have done what they could
[14:14] Eddi Haskell: to hold honshu
[14:14] Jago Constantine: I read somewhere that the Japanese had already tried to surrender before the bombs were dropped
[14:14] Eddi Haskell: no / that is not ture
[14:14] Jago Constantine: But the allies wanted unconditional surrender
[14:14] Eddi Haskell: true
[14:15] Eddi Haskell: my freind
[14:15] Eddi Haskell: i can tell you
[14:15] Eddi Haskell: exaclty the opposite
[14:15] Eddi Haskell: it is not certain
[14:15] Eddi Haskell: if the japanese did surrendur uncondiationally
[14:15] Eddi Haskell: apparantly
[14:15] Eddi Haskell: macathur agreed to let them keep their emporer
[14:15] Eddi Haskell: and state religion
[14:16] Eddi Haskell: that was their demand
[14:16] Eddi Haskell: it was not negotiable
[14:16] Eddi Haskell: so
[14:16] Eddi Haskell: the deal was formed
[14:16] Eddi Haskell: after the bomb
[14:16] Eddi Haskell: you can keep that but you surrendur
[14:16] Eddi Haskell: it was the EMPORER and his supporters
[14:16] Eddi Haskell: that surrendured
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: there was enough of an infrasstucture in place
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: that when his voice was heard
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: the japanese stopped fighting
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: but
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: if he did not do that
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: and they were told to fight
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: the casualaties would have been MASSIVE
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: on both sides
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: this story
[14:17] Eddi Haskell: says there woujld not have been a surrendur
[14:18] Eddi Haskell: and they would have fought to the death
[14:18] Eddi Haskell: i have read something that is not science fiction in the past few weeks that should be
[14:18] Eddi Haskell: about phages
[14:18] Eddi Haskell: do you know what a phage is?
[14:18] Eddi Haskell: i think i want to write a story
[14:19] Eddi Haskell: you have heard of them?
[14:19] Jago Constantine: yes
[14:19] Eddi Haskell: in the us
[14:20] Eddi Haskell: with the very strict FDA
[14:20] Eddi Haskell: they have been approved as food additives
[14:20] Eddi Haskell: you can spray them on food to stop bacteria
[14:20] Eddi Haskell: but not on humans
[14:20] Eddi Haskell: how could something
[14:20] Eddi Haskell: so natural and basic
[14:20] Eddi Haskell: not be legal or used in the west
[14:21] Eddi Haskell: it got me to think
[14:21] Eddi Haskell: that so many of thse
[14:21] Eddi Haskell: old remedies
[14:21] Eddi Haskell: folklore
[14:21] Eddi Haskell: are based in science
[14:21] Jago Constantine: cool
[14:21] Eddi Haskell: also another historial revsion story / is this / in may 1940 / if halifax became prime minister / not churchill / the odds were stacked against churchill / the royal family did not want him to be prime minister for many reasons / the most basic is that he supported / the duke of windsor / during the abdication crises / halifax was in lords / not commonds / he was v ery high church / he was called the holy fox / well
[14:23] Jago Constantine: Ok, so if he became prime minister what would have happened?
[14:23] Eddi Haskell: stalin would have gotten the bomb is the primise
[14:23] Jago Constantine: Hey, Chornoi
[14:23] Eddi Haskell: well he would have cut a deal with hitler / one was offered
[14:23] Jago Constantine: Welcome to sci fi discussion :)
[14:23] Eddi Haskell: to end the war
[14:23] Chornoi Serpente: hi jago and eddi
[14:23] Eddi Haskell: hi chornoi how are you?
[14:23] Jago Constantine: small group today lol
[14:24] Eddi Haskell: makw sure to see our yard sale downstairs after the meeting LOL
[14:24] Jago Constantine: Eddi is talking about alternate history / he's a big fan of the genre
[14:24] Eddi Haskell: i have been reading about it / well there is a school of historiography that says / the same end results would have happened anyway
[14:25] Chornoi Serpente: any specific book?
[14:25] Eddi Haskell: if something changed / i have to go upstairs and get it / lol
[14:25] Jago Constantine: ok
[14:25] Eddi Haskell: ill look it up
[14:26] Jago Constantine: I think the chances of things staying similar diverge the more time passes from the starting point
[14:26] Chornoi Serpente: with apologies for bopping about i'm still getting used to moving about
[14:26] Jago Constantine: having trouble sitting, Chornoi? / No worries :)
[14:26] Eddi Haskell: are you new?
[14:27] Chornoi Serpente: well new to exploring or attending events - my sister runs a sim here and she tagged me and i'm slowly getting my feet wet?
[14:27] Jago Constantine: Great :) / try the chairs?
[14:28] Eddi Haskell: yeah just sit on them
[14:28] Jago Constantine: that looks fine :)
[14:28] Eddi Haskell: we are talking this thing down soon
[14:28] Jago Constantine: if you have trouble with the pose, turn off your animation override if you have one
[14:28] Eddi Haskell: our outer space island
[14:28] Jago Constantine: so what's the book, eddi?
[14:29] Eddi Haskell: what if? / ill get it
[14:29] Chornoi Serpente: i like outer space !! I've visited Cosmique by Thoth Jantzen
[14:29] Jago Constantine: ok
[14:29] Eddi Haskell: i have to go upstairs lol
[14:29] Jago Constantine: Oh I haven't been there
[14:29] Eddi Haskell: ill be back in a bit
[14:29] Jago Constantine: I might check it out
[14:30] Jago Constantine: This week I read 'The Listeners' by James Gunn
[14:30] Jago Constantine: It's about SETI
[14:30] Jago Constantine: It's very interesting ... it reminded me a lot of 'Contact' by Carl Sagan
[14:31] Jago Constantine: which was written later
[14:31] Jago Constantine: Either Sagan was influenced by Gunn, or there aren't that many storylines about SETI :P
[14:31] Chornoi Serpente: I have read that - and seen the sorry movie
[14:31] Jago Constantine: heh I didn't mind the movie, but it was from before I read the book / so I agreed with South Park, where someone said 'I watched for two hours and the alien was her freaking father!?!'
[14:32] Eddi Haskell: back
[14:32] Jago Constantine: welcome back :)
[14:32] Chornoi Serpente: LOL wb
[14:33] Eddi Haskell: the book is very prosaicallty called What If 2 / by Putnam
[14:33] Jago Constantine: heh so there was a What If 1, obviously
[14:33] Eddi Haskell: yes / i guess you would call it essays and not stories but they read like stories
[14:34] Jago Constantine: the first, very famous, book of alternate history was written in the early part of the 1900s
[14:34] Eddi Haskell: i am up to what is pizarro had not found potatoes in peru / what was it called
[14:34] Jago Constantine: I think it was called 'What if it had occurred otherwise?' or something like that / If it had happened otherwise, 1931
[14:34] Chornoi Serpente: just amazoned what if? they have a whole series of books - ty excellent
[14:35] Jago Constantine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_It_Had_Happened_Otherwise
[14:35] Chornoi Serpente: both by robert cowley?
[14:36] Eddi Haskell: this is the most significant
[14:36] Eddi Haskell: *

* If the Emperor Frederick had not had Cancer by Emil Ludwig: German Emperor Frederick III survives, and with his wife, Princess Victoria, rules a liberal humanist Germany where their son never succumbs to militarism, due to the long-term benign effects of this scenario. Therefore, World War I never happens in this world.
[14:36] Jago Constantine: that is interesting
[14:36] Jago Constantine: I just listened to a podcast a while ago where hitler had had a kind childhood
[14:37] Eddi Haskell: world war 1 would not have happened, and world war 2 would not have
[14:37] Jago Constantine: and grew up to be a great humanitarian
[14:37] Eddi Haskell: but
[14:37] Eddi Haskell: i am not sure if one individual can fight a long term tide
[14:38] Eddi Haskell: but you have tons of these
[14:38] Eddi Haskell: what if lenin would have lived
[14:38] Eddi Haskell: on and on
[14:38] Chornoi Serpente: eddi there have been numerous occasions in history where one man turns the tide
[14:38] Eddi Haskell: i just came back from sciene fiction . i sent a week in chatagnooga
[14:39] Eddi Haskell: well yes
[14:39] Eddi Haskell: when one man makes a difference but
[14:39] Eddi Haskell: there is a view of history that it is all inevitable
[14:39] Jago Constantine: Oh here is the story online
[14:39] Jago Constantine: http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/scholes_11_07/
[14:39] Jago Constantine: hitler, hemingway and chaplin meet in a bar in paris
[14:40] Eddi Haskell: ill make sure to read it
[14:40] Jago Constantine: maybe I will send it out to the group to read for next week
[14:40] Eddi Haskell: many people for example write books like what if lee won gettysburg
[14:40] Jago Constantine: yeah
[14:41] Eddi Haskell: but that is not how it worked
[14:41] Eddi Haskell: and the south won the war
[14:41] Eddi Haskell: the north had way too much industrial power
[14:41] Eddi Haskell: however on stroy in this book is
[14:41] Eddi Haskell: what is lincoln had not freed the slaves
[14:41] Eddi Haskell: the north might have given up
[14:41] Eddi Haskell: the us civil war actually was the first modern was
[14:41] Eddi Haskell: concentration camps
[14:42] Eddi Haskell: submarines
[14:42] Jago Constantine: a classic alt history is Bring the Jubilee by Ward Moore
[14:42] Eddi Haskell: machine guns
[14:42] Eddi Haskell: what is that about
[14:42] Jago Constantine: the confederacy won the war
[14:42] Jago Constantine: lol
[14:42] Eddi Haskell: oh there are alot of those
[14:42] Eddi Haskell: lol
[14:42] Eddi Haskell: i just got a vd
[14:42] Eddi Haskell: dvd
[14:42] Jago Constantine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bring_the_Jubilee
[14:42] Eddi Haskell: the confederate states of american lol
[14:43] Chornoi Serpente: i agree that the technologies would have developed - perhaps at a slower rate
[14:43] Chornoi Serpente: as the wars really pushed that into overdrive
[14:43] Jago Constantine: yeah, that seems like a pretty clear conclusion about technology
[14:44] Eddi Haskell: well the other great modern war was the franco prussian war
[14:44] Jago Constantine: wars drive it
[14:44] Eddi Haskell: another story in this book is what if the ems telegram was never sent
[14:44] Chornoi Serpente: however, human nature being what is is, someone's war somewhere would have driven those technologies
[14:45] Eddi Haskell: hi jack
[14:45] Chornoi Serpente: hi jack
[14:45] Jack Ozigard: hi
[14:45] Eddi Haskell: take a seat!
[14:46] Jago Constantine: hey jack
[14:46] Jago Constantine: we're discussing alternate histories
[14:46] Jack Ozigard: okay. that's a difficult one
[14:47] Eddi Haskell: yes
[14:47] Jago Constantine: I wonder if people aren't so interested in histories that diverge too far back
[14:47] Eddi Haskell: like what
[14:47] Jack Ozigard: if a writer doesn't make it alternate enough, he will be accused of bad research
[14:47] Jago Constantine: however I have seen some interesting roman empire never fell stories
[14:48] Eddi Haskell: or never moved east to byzantium
[14:49] Eddi Haskell: ill tell ya this has nothing to do with anything but i have never seen a building make my mouth drop more than hagia sophia
[14:49] Jack Ozigard: I don't know any alternate histories that go back as far as the roman empire
[14:49] Jago Constantine: well it's to do with byzantium :P
[14:49] Eddi Haskell: yes they are in this book
[14:49] Jago Constantine: Ok the one I'm thinking of is called Procurator I think
[14:49] Eddi Haskell: what if socrates did not die is in this book
[14:49] Chornoi Serpente: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction_set_in_the_Roman_empire
[14:50] Jago Constantine: the roman empire is maybe at the 1900 level of technology
[14:50] Eddi Haskell: interesting
[14:50] Jack Ozigard: sandalpunk :)
[14:50] Eddi Haskell: lol
[14:50] Eddi Haskell: that could be something
[14:50] Jago Constantine: yeah its on that list - the germanicus trilogy by kirk mitchell
[14:51] Jago Constantine: I read that book Romanitas, too and was very disappointed
[14:51] Eddi Haskell: somany whats and ifs
[14:51] Jago Constantine: From memory, it wasn't very Roman at all
[14:51] Jago Constantine: I mean, it could have been almost any modern setting
[14:52] Jago Constantine: and, heh, every good alt history should tell you the divergence point, which this didn't
[14:52] Eddi Haskell: sometimes i feel that everything is part of a plan anyway
[14:52] Jago Constantine: other than 'the roman empire never fell'
[14:52] Jago Constantine: it was probably something to do with christianity
[14:52] Chornoi Serpente: eddi r u saying that you think a person's destiny is set?
[14:53] Jago Constantine: that's the divergence for the germanicus trilogy - pontius pilate frees Christ
[14:53] Eddi Haskell: i dont know
[14:53] Eddi Haskell: no
[14:53] Eddi Haskell: well there is a story in this book what if Christ were not crucified
[14:53] Eddi Haskell: and lived to 90\
[14:53] Jago Constantine: oh, what would have happened?
[14:53] Eddi Haskell: one religion wold have emerged
[14:53] Eddi Haskell: judaio christianity
[14:53] Jago Constantine: heh
[14:54] Eddi Haskell: open to all
[14:54] Eddi Haskell: jews and christians would have the same religion
[14:54] Jago Constantine: I read something like that
[14:54] Eddi Haskell: it woujld have taken over the roman emprie and made it stronger
[14:54] Eddi Haskell: jesus would have been seen as the ultimate prophet
[14:54] Jago Constantine: it was kind of catholic ... the pope lives in jerusalem in the temple
[14:54] Eddi Haskell: brining in the new covenant
[14:54] Jago Constantine: heh
[14:54] Eddi Haskell: this is the opposite
[14:54] Eddi Haskell: the temple would have moved to rome
[14:54] Eddi Haskell: where st. peters is
[14:54] Chornoi Serpente: what about when mohammed came along?
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: he came in 700
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: the end result is
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: but according to this book
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: he never would have stood a chance
[14:55] Jago Constantine: ah well, what are the odds that he would come along?
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: christiainity was very established int he east
[14:55] Chornoi Serpente: why not?
[14:55] Jago Constantine: after 700 years
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: well here is the gist
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: of the story
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: the religion that emerges
[14:55] Jago Constantine: well ... think of all the changes that would have occurred
[14:55] Eddi Haskell: is remarkably similar to catholicism
[14:56] Eddi Haskell: with a few differences
[14:56] Chornoi Serpente: and why would the temple have moved to rome?
[14:56] Jago Constantine: someone like him might have come along if conditions had been the same
[14:56] Eddi Haskell: cause constantinoples mother had a dream that said he could move it
[14:56] Eddi Haskell: lol
[14:56] Chornoi Serpente: surely if jesus had lived until 90 - his tomb would take precedence over peters
[14:56] Jago Constantine: good point
[14:56] Eddi Haskell: i ghink they move his remains to rome
[14:56] Jago Constantine: hmm
[14:56] Eddi Haskell: why cant they move it?
[14:57] Eddi Haskell: the moved joseph out of egypt
[14:57] Eddi Haskell: but this story is what i was speaking of
[14:57] Eddi Haskell: the end result is remarkably the same
[14:57] Jago Constantine: if there was no conflict with the jews, then the christians would have stayed centered in jerusalem
[14:57] Jago Constantine: although having said that, rome was preeminent
[14:57] Eddi Haskell: jerusalem was drstoryed in ad 69
[14:57] Eddi Haskell: the jews were taken as slaves aroudn the world
[14:57] Jago Constantine: ok
[14:58] Eddi Haskell: the half that lived
[14:58] Eddi Haskell: the rest were killed by the romans
[14:58] Jago Constantine: Mary Gentle's novel, Ash, is set in a world where Christ was born in Rome to the empress
[14:58] Jago Constantine: Christianity is more like mithraism I think
[14:58] Jago Constantine: I don't know too much about it tho
[14:59] Chornoi Serpente: hmm also why would the jews have converted to jesus' type of judao christianity
[14:59] Eddi Haskell: well
[14:59] Eddi Haskell: jews were starting to comoe to terms with it
[14:59] Chornoi Serpente: in his teachings it's his sacrifice that allows christians into heaven
[14:59] Jago Constantine: well, why not? he evidently had some sympathisers
[15:00] Jago Constantine: true
[15:00] Eddi Haskell: well jews back then did not have a concept of an afterlife per say
[15:00] Eddi Haskell: there is still no postion on it
[15:01] Eddi Haskell: christianity as we know it really firmed up as a separate relition in the 300 years afterwards
[15:01] Jago Constantine: there is a group invite for you both
[15:01] Jago Constantine: we meet each week at the same time
[15:01] Chornoi Serpente: ty
[15:01] Eddi Haskell: there was many chsitian sects
[15:01] Eddi Haskell: some did not give jesus a divine role
[15:01] Eddi Haskell: there were many beleifts
[15:02] Eddi Haskell: in the several hundred years after
[15:02] Jago Constantine: well, there was a lot of variation about exactly how he was diving
[15:02] Eddi Haskell: things were put in place
[15:02] Jago Constantine: divine lol
[15:02] Jago Constantine: not diving
[15:02] Jack Ozigard: lol
[15:02] Eddi Haskell: some christians thought he was just the messiah
[15:02] Eddi Haskell: but human form
[15:02] Jack Ozigard: no some jews did
[15:02] Eddi Haskell: thats just it
[15:03] Eddi Haskell: it was not a sepepate religion until well afterwards
[15:03] Eddi Haskell: there are gospels that are not part of the new testament
[15:03] Eddi Haskell: discovered in egypt at the turn of the century
[15:04] Eddi Haskell: the gospels of philip, mary, james
[15:04] Jago Constantine: I read somewhere that the jewish bible wasn't finalised til after the foundation of christianity
[15:04] Jack Ozigard: there isn't a lot of fiction set in the ncient history, is there? Let alone alternate history.
[15:04] Jago Constantine: and the closed it to exclude the new testament
[15:04] Eddi Haskell: well the old testament was set well before christ
[15:04] Eddi Haskell: in fact there are books in the catholic old testament
[15:04] Chornoi Serpente: yes but his message would not have been so strong if he hadn't of died
[15:04] Eddi Haskell: that the jews dropped
[15:04] Eddi Haskell: well that is just it
[15:05] Eddi Haskell: the crucifixtion was such a strong central event
[15:05] Jack Ozigard: the bible got it's form, afaik, after the fall of the roman empire
[15:05] Eddi Haskell: that is solidified beleif in a new relition
[15:05] Eddi Haskell: there was an arguement that the four current gospels were actually writting about 150 -200
[15:06] Eddi Haskell: there is somethign called the jesus movement
[15:06] Eddi Haskell: interfaith
[15:06] Chornoi Serpente: my tendered suggesion was that jesus would have been treated as a prophet by judaism and therefore
[15:06] Eddi Haskell: they have combed through the gospels to try to come up with the original teachings of jesus
[15:06] Jack Ozigard: would you consider Da Vinci Code an alternate history as well?
[15:07] Chornoi Serpente: when mohammed arose as islam's prophet
[15:07] Jago Constantine: good question jack
[15:07] Jago Constantine: its more of a secret history
[15:07] Eddi Haskell: i dont beleive much of it
[15:07] Jago Constantine: http://www.uchronia.net/bib.cgi/diverge.html
[15:07] Jago Constantine: here is a list of alt histories in order of divergence!
[15:08] Jack Ozigard: yes, but based on the "fact" that some things are not as they are told in the bible and by ancient christians
[15:08] Eddi Haskell: im reading a work right now on St. Augustine
[15:08] Eddi Haskell: its huge
[15:08] Chornoi Serpente: hmm i don't agree with secret history - i would say alternate
[15:08] Eddi Haskell: what a great man
[15:09] Jago Constantine: sure, but because history wasn't changed by the secrets revealed in DVC
[15:09] Jago Constantine: it's not really alternate
[15:09] Jago Constantine: unless we're living in the alternate timeline
[15:09] Eddi Haskell: in my view i think we may be missing the point
[15:09] Chornoi Serpente: ah agreed jago - apologies overlooked that!
[15:10] Eddi Haskell: what is so important throughout history are not individual facts
[15:10] Eddi Haskell: but changes in the way we think
[15:10] Eddi Haskell: and how we think
[15:10] Eddi Haskell: not people, specific religions or facts
[15:10] Chornoi Serpente: hmm so perceived history and our understanding of it?
[15:10] Eddi Haskell: yes
[15:10] Eddi Haskell: how we relate to information
[15:10] Eddi Haskell: one of the most powerful ways to view the old and new testaments
[15:11] Eddi Haskell: are as literature
[15:11] Chornoi Serpente: like fables?
[15:11] Eddi Haskell: western civilization is ultiamatley based not on facts
[15:11] Eddi Haskell: but on how two mediteranean people thought
[15:11] Eddi Haskell: jews and greeks
[15:11] Eddi Haskell: i think now for example
[15:11] Eddi Haskell: in the united states, hence , the western worold
[15:12] Eddi Haskell: a mind shift is occuring
[15:12] Eddi Haskell: we are moving away from unabashed capitalism
[15:12] Eddi Haskell: it is a sea change
[15:12] Chornoi Serpente: ooh and also add and it's struggle against he "eastern" civiisation's ideas?
[15:12] Eddi Haskell: well
[15:13] Eddi Haskell: i think that many westerners are more respectful of eastern ideas
[15:13] Eddi Haskell: i think in the US people are becoming less materialistic
[15:13] Eddi Haskell: it is how we think
[15:13] Chornoi Serpente: agreed - countries are beginning to plan long-term
[15:14] Eddi Haskell: these two mediteranean peoples
[15:14] Eddi Haskell: go back to what i said
[15:14] Eddi Haskell: and im talking before rome
[15:14] Jack Ozigard: I doubt it, but I don't know about the USA
[15:14] Chornoi Serpente: but isn't that just a symptom of how young the USA is in contrast
[15:14] Eddi Haskell: jews and greeks were the greatest influence on western civilization.l Do you know why?
[15:14] Chornoi Serpente: and i'm not running that down
[15:14] Eddi Haskell: historians feel the reason is that they were the first two groups in which large numbers of the population were literate
[15:15] Eddi Haskell: now how does that influence today
[15:15] Chornoi Serpente: never thought of it that way
[15:15] Eddi Haskell: the trick about this era is the managment of metadata
[15:15] Eddi Haskell: or meta anything
[15:15] Eddi Haskell: meta meaning information about
[15:15] Eddi Haskell: that is why google rules
[15:16] Jack Ozigard: I couldn't tell if they were the largest influence. I see a lot of other important influences as well in modern Europe
[15:16] Eddi Haskell: it is all a bout metadata in search
[15:16] Eddi Haskell: im taling about the years around 1000 - 500 bc
[15:16] Jack Ozigard goes back to the uchronia list
[15:16] Eddi Haskell: one thing i thik is funny
[15:17] Eddi Haskell: is mirrored in an older work in bablyon
[15:17] Eddi Haskell: is the entire creation story in genesis
[15:17] Eddi Haskell: the creation mith of sargon
[15:17] Eddi Haskell: you said the same thing about mithris
[15:17] Eddi Haskell: the people back then had the same myths
[15:17] Eddi Haskell: rooted in prehistory
[15:17] Eddi Haskell: but
[15:17] Eddi Haskell: it is the application of forms of literature which make them powerful
[15:18] Chornoi Serpente: aaah but isn't that why christianity did actually spread so quickly
[15:18] Eddi Haskell: many pagans back then
[15:18] Eddi Haskell: or non jews
[15:18] Eddi Haskell: and back then jews were 10 -15% of the roman empire
[15:18] Chornoi Serpente: it latched onto the indiginous local religions and incorporated the rituals into it
[15:18] Eddi Haskell: in the jewish God
[15:18] Eddi Haskell: BUT
[15:18] Chornoi Serpente: it made the religion feel familiar
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: they cuold not become jews unless they were circumcized
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: unless they followed all this commandments
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: who wanted to bother?
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: they were allowed to pray as gentiles
[15:19] Chornoi Serpente: yes but the christians god was more inclusive that the jewish god
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: the power of christiianity
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: is that you did not have to do any of this
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: in order to be members of the new covenant
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: you just joined
[15:19] Eddi Haskell: to become a jew was and is a total pain in the ass
[15:20] Chornoi Serpente: lol you gotta want it bad!
[15:20] Jack Ozigard: ah, but you can't become a jew unless you are one
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: lord
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: no that is totally incorect
[15:20] Jack Ozigard: or better: if your mother is one
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: you can convert
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: no
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: you can convert
[15:20] Jack Ozigard: yes, but that's very difficult
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: you always have been able to
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: very
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: and they reject you three times
[15:20] Eddi Haskell: and they dont see the point of it
[15:21] Eddi Haskell: judaism was never meant to take over the world
[15:21] Jack Ozigard: and I think the christian promiss of heaven is a good way to attrackt people in bad times
[15:21] Eddi Haskell: lol
[15:21] Jago Constantine: Ok, I have to log now and have breakfast
[15:21] Eddi Haskell: i kinda thik the roman orgies woulda been more fun
[15:21] Jago Constantine: Thanks for coming Chornoi and Jack :)
[15:21] Eddi Haskell: jago
[15:22] Eddi Haskell: guys if you want to buy stuff look downstairs
[15:22] Eddi Haskell: we are having a huge yard sale
[15:22] Chornoi Serpente: ty it was nice o meet you all
[15:22] Jago Constantine: Next week will be in a different location
[15:22] Jack Ozigard: thank you organising, I'll try to be more on time next time
[15:22] Eddi Haskell: if you want a landmark i have one
[15:22] Jago Constantine: I'll send out a LM beforehand and put it in search
[15:22] Jago Constantine: an LM for downstairs, eddi means :P
[15:22] Chornoi Serpente: i'll be msiing next week RL appointment but hopefully c u in the week after
[15:22] Jago Constantine: great :)